The physics of karate strikes.

[Shawn]

Hi Guys,
Not sure if this has been posted before or not, but quite a good article of striking from a purely scientific point of view.

http://www.howeverythingworks.org/journ ... cle1.1.pdf

Let me know your thoughts.

[Katana]

Wow. An article that actually explains things correctly......and properly distinguishes momentum from (say) force.

The best aspect of it was when the author said that what matters is not the weight of the karate-ka throwing the punch, but how much of that weight is used in the delivery of that punch.

Excellent reading.

[Jinen Kym]

Maybe I missed something but does it say anything about application of the striking technique?

If I use the same mass speed, velocity, area etc as a good hookpunch but with the arm outstetched from start to finish ... or a driving straight punch that only gets to half extension on impact or the wrist is bent wrongly would the formula's apply or does it needs some more "provided that... or if this".
Wrong technique or timing will end up with the energy being absorbed by your own joints. So keep all the formula's and theories. There is a difference to a body punch to the absorbing abdomen and the snapping crack at the head to bounce the brain on the inner skull. I saw a fast but light tap from a whisp of a guy knock another large guy out and I've seen rugby players with mass and strength dish out several punches without effect. The formula's are ok for breaking a board where the base is set and the target is stable but a karate punch is a technique used on a moving opponent of differing builds and direction of movement.

One guy suggests that if you throw a thrust punch out at the beginning of the step by the time the step is finished it will be much faster. "Forward speed plus punch speed". So if I push a shotgun forward as it fires the bullet will go faster, further? I think if I had something to stop the recoil it would be better.

[Katana]

In fairness, the article is about board breaking.

And yes, if you push a firearm forward as you pull the trigger, the bullet will travel faster. But not noticeably, because it has a speed of 800+ feet per second anyway.

However, your punch only has (maybe) 20 fps. So stepping will add to the speed.

[andrewp]

Maybe I missed something but does it say anything about application of the striking technique?

If I use the same mass speed, velocity, area etc as a good hookpunch but with the arm outstetched from start to finish ... or a driving straight punch that only gets to half extension on impact or the wrist is bent wrongly would the formula's apply or does it needs some more "provided that... or if this".
Wrong technique or timing will end up with the energy being absorbed by your own joints. So keep all the formula's and theories. There is a difference to a body punch to the absorbing abdomen and the snapping crack at the head to bounce the brain on the inner skull. I saw a fast but light tap from a whisp of a guy knock another large guy out and I've seen rugby players with mass and strength dish out several punches without effect. The formula's are ok for breaking a board where the base is set and the target is stable but a karate punch is a technique used on a moving opponent of differing builds and direction of movement.

One guy suggests that if you throw a thrust punch out at the beginning of the step by the time the step is finished it will be much faster. "Forward speed plus punch speed". So if I push a shotgun forward as it fires the bullet will go faster, further? I think if I had something to stop the recoil it would be better.

Bugga!!! I have to agree with you .

[Jinen Kym]

Bugga!!! I have to agree with you .

[andrewp]

if you move a gun as you shoot....it will kick to the side...definitely miss the target and go faster....I think not.

[Shawn]

From a purely physics perspective I think it's a great article. Doesn't talk about martial application, but wow, that would be a huge article!

[Katana]

if you move a gun as you shoot....it will kick to the side...definitely miss the target and go faster....I think not.

Here we go again..............

[Jinen Kym]

From a purely physics perspective I think it's a great article. Doesn't talk about martial application, but wow, that would be a huge article!

I agree with the physics aspect but it's a bit out there as a stand alone argument on what makes a strike effective and it does begin with it titled as "karate" significant.

I think that technique of a karate strike on a person or board, which incorporates these physics in motion, is a greater factor. I take onboard it is trying to explain a small area of impact and energy dispersment etc but it may as well go on to give the technical physics of how the foot grips on the floor, gravity and all other formulas that would come into it. Even the fact that moisture in a piece of green timber is more likely to absorb the energy and return it back through the hand ........ etc ... ... ..etc.

I think I need to see another episode of "Numbers"

[andrewp]

From a purely physics perspective I think it's a great article. Doesn't talk about martial application, but wow, that would be a huge article!

I agree with the physics aspect but it's a bit out there as a stand alone argument on what makes a strike effective and it does begin with it titled as "karate" significant.

I think that technique of a karate strike on a person or board, which incorporates these physics in motion, is a greater factor. I take onboard it is trying to explain a small area of impact and energy dispersment etc but it may as well go on to give the technical physics of how the foot grips on the floor, gravity and all other formulas that would come into it. Even the fact that moisture in a piece of green timber is more likely to absorb the energy and return it back through the hand ........ etc ... ... ..etc.

I think I need to see another episode of "Numbers"

I think we should teach karate and leave the physics alone. The differences in the amount of force applied is immeasurable from one minute to the next.

There is the weather, terrain, whether your warmed up or not etc. Just do the proper technique at the right time....the fastest and best technique is surprise.

[Katana]

[quote="andrewp]
I think we should teach karate and leave the physics alone. [/quote]

I would suggest that teaching karate necessarily involves a sojourn into physics, just as teaching a person to drive does.

Applying force to a striking area, and ensuring that area contacts the intended target, is teaching physics. Just as teaching that the accelerator makes the car go faster and the brake doesn't is teaching physics.

I certainly don't think students need to be able to calculate momentum in order to punch or kick. But it is clearly an advantage if they know they should maximise the fist speed in order to strike effectively.

[Shawn]

I think we should teach karate and leave the physics alone.

Each to their own. I love understanding this sort of stuff, but feel free to not read it

[andrewp]

[

Everything we do involves physics but I have never heard a driving instructor go into the physics of a smooth gear change.

We all just want the wheel re-invented don't we.

I think I should just stick to teaching karate and leave the physics alone.

By the way Shawn....I didn't read it I just replied to the posts.

[Shawn]

[

Everything we do involves physics but I have never heard a driving instructor go into the physics of a smooth gear change.

Quite possibly, but consider a motorsport driving instructor and you'll get a much different response. A normal driving instructors primary goal is to teach safety, awareness and knowledge of the rules. While a race driving instructor's goal is to get that car and his student around the track as fast as he can and thus knowing how to squeeze every ounce of performance and efficiency out of the machine is paramount. Therefore, he needs to know the physics by which their machine is bound.

The training methods and knowledge requirements suit the desired outcome.

Each to their own. Some need the info, some don't, most don't care. Personally, I love that stuff.

[andrewp]

The training methods and knowledge requirements suit the desired outcome.

Each to their own. Some need the info, some don't, most don't care. Personally, I love that stuff.

Good analogy....I'm impressed by your debating skills....again....guess I'm just a Joe average driver not a racing car driver.

As long as I get in first and hard "enough" to achieve my goal (staying alive and unharmed) I don't precisely care if I can't get a fraction harder or faster. I guess this is not so important when you are slowing down anyway and the more you train the stiffer the joints get anyway.

Enjoy it if thats your thing.

[Katana]

Everything we do involves physics but I have never heard a driving instructor go into the physics of a smooth gear change.

We all just want the wheel re-invented don't we.

I think I should just stick to teaching karate and leave the physics alone.

By the way Shawn....I didn't read it I just replied to the posts.

Teaching someone to depress the clutch, then change gears, is teaching physics. They don't need to understand the degree of force required to perform each movement, but they need to understand that force is required. Hence, physics.

Perhaps reading the subject article might be appropriate?