Bruce Lee in the UFC

[Millennia]

no proof of fighting skill does not mean no fighting skill.

if you are to beleive the reports, bruce was commonly involved in street fighting.

i think you can tell by his fighting in movies that he is a more real fighter than a lot of other martial artists in movies *cough*JCVD*cough*

i think he would definitely hold his own against chuck, ali and MMA fighters, not be the easy beat that a lot of you think he would be.

no proven fighting skill vs proven fighting skill is always going to be a disadvantage. Would you fight the world heavyweight boxing champ when you'd never had a single competitive bout in your life? would you fight Fedor when you'd never stepped into a MMA fight before? When you say believe the reports, what you are really saying is "believe the rumours" - there is no evidence of Bruce fighting other than hearsay so it can't really be factored in. Regardless of whether he had street fights or not, he didn't have the fighting experience of Chuck or Ali, and was massively outweighed by both - a significant factor. I know, now is when you start the small light guy is faster than the big guy argument - unfortunately for Bruce, Chuck and Ali were big guys with speed, agility and skill so the weight difference is a very strong advantage in these instances.

By the way, I don't think anyone said he would be an easy beat?

Also, one thing we have to consider is that we can only judge Bruce by where he was at when he died. You can't use conjecture like "if he were alive today he'd have BJJ yada yada" because we don't know what he would have done or to what level. I think all arguments need to be based on that particular individual when they were in their prime. Likewise for Chuck, the guy was in his 50's when he started BJJ - not exactly in his fighting prime so I don't think we can factor the BJJ into it as an advantage for him as the rest of his skills would be diminished by now (particularly if he were to participate in the hypothetical fight)

[Chrislg]

I wouldn't be telling Chuckie his fighting skills have diminished though... I think they have probably diminished to a point well beyond my prime.

[andrewp]

Plus I saw him win in Way of the Dragon...

Thanks for reminding me....I saw that to....

[andrewp]

no proof of fighting skill does not mean no fighting skill.

if you are to beleive the reports, bruce was commonly involved in street fighting.

i think you can tell by his fighting in movies that he is a more real fighter than a lot of other martial artists in movies *cough*JCVD*cough*

i think he would definitely hold his own against chuck, ali and MMA fighters, not be the easy beat that a lot of you think he would be.

Street fighters are useless in the ring where there are rules....in that case Chuck would win by disqalification.

[andrewp]

By the way, I don't think anyone said he would be an easy beat?

Yep....no one would.

[Shawn]

no proven fighting skill vs proven fighting skill is always going to be a disadvantage.

Only in a debate, as there is no proof. If we're talking about 3rd party perspective, then proven makes no difference at all. If we're talking 1st person, each person has either proven to themselves or not, through competition, street or otherwise. In this case, the confident (self-proven) will always triumph over the unsure.

Would you fight the world heavyweight boxing champ when you'd never had a single competitive bout in your life?

Depends on the situation. In a boxing match, absolutely not. In the street, who knows. Sure he has great experience at his SPORT, he's also highly conditioned and extremely fit, but he's also greatly restricted. He's highly conditioned not to kick, throw, lock, grapple, spit, bite, gouge, elbow, knee, stomp, use weapons etc etc. The situation is greatly important. If we're talking a pub fight, I'd pick the phsyco brawler who gets into punch ups every other weekend (and no competitive record) over the heavyweight boxing champ any day.

When you say believe the reports, what you are really saying is "believe the rumours" - there is no evidence of Bruce fighting other than hearsay so it can't really be factored in.

Agreed. No proof of any kind. Can always be used in debates, but only opinionative. The closest thing to a factual report is an interview of his mother describing him as a child.

[andrewp]

I'd pick the phsyco brawler who gets into punch ups every other weekend (and no competitive record) over the heavyweight boxing champ any day.

Every win is a competive record of his sporting activities....and there are rules....his, yes he knows every win and every loss. None of this changes your point which is very valid.

[LAllan]

http://www.news.com.au/travel/holiday-i ... 5839494241

Alright, Chuck vs alligator of similar weight and leatheriness. Basic MMA rules with the addition of biting being allowed.

I'm picking alligator.

[Millennia]

In this case, the confident (self-proven) will always triumph over the unsure

without having had a fight (sporting or real), how does one self-prove? I think a lack of experience will in most cases result in a lower level of confidence that the participant with more experience (specifically experience of success)

In the street, who knows. Sure he has great experience at his SPORT, he's also highly conditioned and extremely fit, but he's also greatly restricted. He's highly conditioned not to kick, throw, lock, grapple, spit, bite, gouge, elbow, knee, stomp, use weapons etc etc. The situation is greatly important. If we're talking a pub fight, I'd pick the phsyco brawler who gets into punch ups every other weekend (and no competitive record) over the heavyweight boxing champ any day.

ah, but this thread and discussion is Bruce in the UFC - soooo,no pub fights, no spitting, biting, gouging, fishhooking, stomping or digital penetration allowed! Plus, let's not make the mistake of thinking that a martial artist will prevail because of these - any idiot can spit including the boxer (note to the boxers out there - I'm not calling you idiots). I'm going to start a different thread on the foul tactics component of this discussion, since this thread is a SPORT related debate.

So, Ali or Lee?

[Zorbasan]

i still say lee

[flyfire]

I idolize Brucey, watched all his movies and read his books.

Ali will still win. No contest. Likewise if Bruce accepted the challenge by Apidej Sit Hirun. Apidej by TKO.

[Zorbasan]

Ali will still win. No contest.

i can accept that some people beleive ali would win, he is a great fighter, but the no contest thing bugs me. we are talking about a UFC match here not a boxing one. if it was straight boxing then i would probably agree that Ali would win. but in an MMA match i cant see how ali can win, and i definitely cant see that if he was to win he would dominate.

[flyfire]

Ground game:neither had any UFC-relevant skills. even. And, if Ali lands on top of Bruce, instinctual GnP may prove decisive. If Bruce ends on top of Ali, will be lifted off i daresay quite easily due to weight differential.
Takedowns: see above.
Clinch: neither natural clinchers: ALI advantage- major size/weight advantage. will smother Bruce.
Boxing: do i really, really need to outline the advantage here. Bruce's speed in this regard won't mean a lot against a pro-boxer, a fast, heavier one at that.
kicking: Bruce, by far. BUT for range issues, power differential etc insufficient to counter boxing. Ali will eat kicks and simultaneously (NOT after) close range to use hands.

Range/Cage-craft: Ali has been in there countless times. Bruce, zero. Guess who will be able to tactically close distance, cut off the 'corners' etc and use a close range game. Not Bruce.

[Millennia]

if it was straight boxing then i would probably agree that Ali would win. but in an MMA match i cant see how ali can win, and i definitely cant see that if he was to win he would dominate.

then you have obviously never sparred a skilled boxer then. Boxers are adept at fluid transitions through ranges. The problem is that most martial artists are so caught up in the whole "but I can kick" thing that they don't realise that boxers move in and out of kicking range all the time. They can defend the best punchers in the world, that defence will still work against kicks (not lowline of course). I've never seen anybody of Lee's stature knock out a seasoned heavyweight fighter of any description, and I think it's safe to say in a UFC style match Lee would not be able to finish the fight with strikes. He would have to resort to grappling. Now Dan Inosanto states unequivocally that Lee NEVER rolled or sparred his grappling (in his DVD set if you want to check), any grappler will tell you that if you don't roll your grappling skills will not be reliable against a resisting opponent.

Now I totally get you're a Bruce Lee fan, guess what - so am I - i've loved the guy since I was a kid, so I can also understand why you have your opinion. BUT to say you can't see any way that Ali would have defeated him is a little bit rich, isn't it? you can't see ANY way? how about a big right cross straight to the moosh? I think that might finish the fight pretty quickly

[Shawn]

I think I'm gonna sit smack bang on the fence with this one. There's some absolutely great points made here, all valid. The reality is we never know how it would go, but we can theorise based on various principles. There's no question that Ali didn't have Bruce's versatility or range. Conversley, there's no question that Bruce didn't have the same exposure to resisting opponents that Ali did.

What I will say is that Ali certainly had the weight advantage and probably conditioning. He would be able to take a very big hit.... in the "safe" areas. He wouldn't know how to handle Bruce's range and while an inexperienced ground grappler wouldn't do well in the ring, they'd hand it to someone who had zero experience. With that in mind, he was only a little dude, and while he could generate power, I don't think it would be anything like Ali. I think in order for Bruce to win, he'd have to use many of the dirty tactics. Now I'm sure you'll all say that Ali could handle it, but many UFC fights have shown some of the biggest men whimper when they get poked in the eye.

My call is;
Street = Lee by TKO
UFC = Ali by KO