One for the Stand-Up People (Karate, TKD etc)

[Jinen Kym]

One of the main things that comes to my mind is that you have to focus more on getting "up and out" than anything else nowdays because many of these gutless wonders have more gutless friends standing there ready to stick you with a knife.

So focus can't always be on the guy your dancing with but the moron tapping you on the shoulder.

[Shawn]

I'm not sure if it's been covered already, but if you're a a stand-up guy without much ground experience, and you find yourself on the ground, you should heed the words of Funakoshi Sensei.

His 12th precepts says: "Do not think of winning, think, rather, of not losing".

Your primary objective here is to survive. Do not try to overcome your adversary on the ground. Rather put yourself in a position so that he can not overcome you. You can then hopefully bring him back into your playground and win the game.

To leave you with another quote, in "Art of War", Sun Tsu said;

"A strategy in commanding troops should not depend on the enemy's not coming, but rather should rely on one's own ability to await and meet him when he does come. It should not depend on the enemy's not attacking, but should rely on our not being susceptible to attack."

[LAllan]

I'm not sure if it's been covered already, but if you're a a stand-up guy without much ground experience, and you find yourself on the ground, you should heed the words of Funakoshi Sensei.

His 12th precepts says: "Do not think of winning, think, rather, of not losing".

I quite like that quote. Its actually pretty similar to some of the comments made in the book jiu jitsu university (in particular in regard to things said by Helio Gracie) which is probably the only BJJ book I've got from which I've managed to learn stuff that I could immediately use in rolling/sparring. It's also probably the best place to look for answers to some of the questions you've raised on ozbudo in regard to ground techniques, Shawn.

To leave you with another quote, in "Art of War", Sun Tsu said;

"A strategy in commanding troops should not depend on the enemy's not coming, but rather should rely on one's own ability to await and meet him when he does come. It should not depend on the enemy's not attacking, but should rely on our not being susceptible to attack."

I can see how that sort of maybe can be interpreted in a similar way to the Funakoshi quote above, but that aside, I'm buggered if I've ever read a Sun Tzu quote and thought wow, that's neatly summed up an immediately useful principle for the real world. They all sound really cool and probably are useful ideas if you're commanding 2000 troops with swords and armour, but trying to apply them to unarmed fighting/martial arts in the modern day is, in my view anyway, more of a nerdy intellectual exercise to kill a bit of time than a useful way to improve your skills. Which as a lot of martial artists just love spouting stuff from him will be an unpopular view, however because I'm completely correct on this one I don't care.

[Chrislg]

Shawn wrote:
I'm not sure if it's been covered already, but if you're a a stand-up guy without much ground experience, and you find yourself on the ground, you should heed the words of Funakoshi Sensei.

His 12th precepts says: "Do not think of winning, think, rather, of not losing".


I quite like that quote. Its actually pretty similar to some of the comments made in the book jiu jitsu university (in particular in regard to things said by Helio Gracie) which is probably the only BJJ book I've got from which I've managed to learn stuff that I could immediately use in rolling/sparring. It's also probably the best place to look for answers to some of the questions you've raised on ozbudo in regard to ground techniques, Shawn.


Shawn wrote:
To leave you with another quote, in "Art of War", Sun Tsu said;

"A strategy in commanding troops should not depend on the enemy's not coming, but rather should rely on one's own ability to await and meet him when he does come. It should not depend on the enemy's not attacking, but should rely on our not being susceptible to attack."


I can see how that sort of maybe can be interpreted in a similar way to the Funakoshi quote above, but that aside, I'm buggered if I've ever read a Sun Tzu quote and thought wow, that's neatly summed up an immediately useful principle for the real world. They all sound really cool and probably are useful ideas if you're commanding 2000 troops with swords and armour, but trying to apply them to unarmed fighting/martial arts in the modern day is, in my view anyway, more of a nerdy intellectual exercise to kill a bit of time than a useful way to improve your skills. Which as a lot of martial artists just love spouting stuff from him will be an unpopular view, however because I'm completely correct on this one I don't care.

1. The first thing that came to my mind was also Saulo's book. Defence being the primary consideration etc...
2. I can see where you are coming from, but I am a big fan of this book and yes, did use it a lot for nerdy intellectual exercise at Uni. But simple stuff like making sure the sun is behind you (to put it in the eyes of your opponent) work well in reality.

[Shawn]

I can see how that sort of maybe can be interpreted in a similar way to the Funakoshi quote above, but that aside, I'm buggered if I've ever read a Sun Tzu quote and thought wow, that's neatly summed up an immediately useful principle for the real world. They all sound really cool and probably are useful ideas if you're commanding 2000 troops with swords and armour, but trying to apply them to unarmed fighting/martial arts in the modern day is, in my view anyway, more of a nerdy intellectual exercise to kill a bit of time than a useful way to improve your skills. Which as a lot of martial artists just love spouting stuff from him will be an unpopular view, however because I'm completely correct on this one I don't care.

HAHAHA gold... and of course, I disagree.

Would it be more useful if I simply pulled you aside and said
"Be patient. Be willing to wait, knowing that when he does come in, you can handle whatever he dishes out. Further, put yourself in a position that whenever you're attacked, even by surprise, you can handle it."
Is that immediately useful?

[dadams]

I can see how that sort of maybe can be interpreted in a similar way to the Funakoshi quote above, but that aside, I'm buggered if I've ever read a Sun Tzu quote and thought wow, that's neatly summed up an immediately useful principle for the real world. They all sound really cool and probably are useful ideas if you're commanding 2000 troops with swords and armour, but trying to apply them to unarmed fighting/martial arts in the modern day is, in my view anyway, more of a nerdy intellectual exercise to kill a bit of time than a useful way to improve your skills. Which as a lot of martial artists just love spouting stuff from him will be an unpopular view, however because I'm completely correct on this one I don't care.

Given that Sun Tzu's strategies are supposedly still required reading at various military academies around the world and it even gets analysed and used in business, then perhaps it may be a little more useful than a nerdy excercise.

[flyfire]

Lily, nerds rule the world.

nerdy, and therefore salient quote:

"“The arts of peace and the arts of war are like the two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing. What is called cherishing the Way of the Warrior is NOT a matter of extolling the martial arts above all things and becoming a warmonger.” Kuroda Nagamasa

This little beaut is from Ideals of the Samurai, which was gathering dust until I read this thread.

[Shawn]

love it love it love it. I'm such a nerd!

[Katana]

I'm a bit late in on this, but what the hey....

IMHO the biggest danger from being grounded is not from your immediate opponent. It's from his mate/s who will start kicking you in the head and ribs. I've seen it 2-3 times in pub fights.

Secondly, I think there can be some risk in extrapolating from MMA to real world fights. Typically, real world encounters have other people around (see above) and have other objects around-bar stools, walls, chairs, pool tables, band eqipment (don't ask...it cost me a fortune!) and in that context the room to "escape" will be limited.

Make no mistake, I agree that ground skills shopuld be taught. But what works in a cage with 6+ metres of clear space may not work when you're stuck between a wall and a jukebox.

[Millennia]

totally agree - however, the same can be said for any Martial Art. Realistically, how much training does everyone do on multiple attacker drills? In my experience and observations, most schools don't do it anywhere near as often as they try to suggest

The skills in MMA are no better or worse than those found in other martial arts for street effectiveness. Just because some MMA fighters choose to take the fight to the ground doesn't mean ALL MMA fighters use that style. There are some brilliant examples of guys in MMA who excel at takedown defence, staying on their feet, and getting back to their feet, and these guys are using those techniques and strategies against FULLY resisting opponents all the time. In fact I would suggest you will not find a better martial art to learn survival on the ground, because these are the guys who are doing it day in day out with someone trying to smash them in the face. How do they translate that street scenarios..... simple, just drill them in street scenarios! no different to the skills in other arts really

So it's not a matter of which art is or isn't suitable for street scenarios, it's HOW you train your art that is the crucial component

[Shawn]

I'm with Ash on this one. I think MMA schools have some of the best training methods around for this sort of thing. It's the very reason I pitched this at the Karate/TKD crowd because it's an area of weakness I feel they have that the MMA crowd don't so much.

That said, I also agree with Katana, provided I could paraphrase as follows;
Secondly, I think there can be some risk in extrapolating from MMA competitions to real world fights.

I think many people look at the likes of UFC and use this as their reality of what would work and what wouldn't. The reason for this is because it really does to a large part, provide this accurately. As Ash said, it's a good indication of what works when someone is going full ground and pound on you. But it can also be dangerous if you don't take other things into account such as the safe space, rules, lack of friends/drugs/alcohol/weapons etc etc.

[Matt Jones ISOHEALTH]

For what it's worth I think there are some good replies here and although much of what works in sports fighting such as BJJ and MMA does provide a great toolbox for self defence there are also some very significant changes that need to be made from straight BJJ or MMA for it to be optimised for self defence. For that matter Muay Thai, BJJ or MMA will also change depending on the specific rules of the comp.

[Zorbasan]

For what it's worth I think there are some good replies here and although much of what works in sports fighting such as BJJ and MMA does provide a great toolbox for self defence there are also some very significant changes that need to be made from straight BJJ or MMA for it to be optimised for self defence. For that matter Muay Thai, BJJ or MMA will also change depending on the specific rules of the comp.

I think MMA is starting to fall in to the TKD trap, although not quite to the same extent. A lot of people see MMA on TV as a sport with rules etc and there will be a lot of skeptics out there saying "MMA is for the ring, not the street". however, it would depend on the school. if the school is competition orientated, then they will teach you MMA methods that will work for competition. However, if the school is a Self Defense school, they will teach street methods of MMA.

TKD is the same, the tkd school i trained at for the majority of the time was against competition, and portrayed themselves as a self defense school. The first TKD school did a bit of both and the last tkd i was at was mainly competition training (speed stamina etc) with a bit of self defence thrown in.

as long as you know what situations the methods being taught are best suited to the it is fine.

[Shawn]

I'd agree with that. This is why you need to be careful to seperate what you see in competitions with what happens on the street or in training.