One for the Stand-Up People (Karate, TKD etc)

[Millennia]

Kym, 'foul tactics' can definitely be useful in creating space when grounded under an attacker - but if the attacker is trained in grappling you won't find it so easy to get access to those targets. A combination of grappling and 'foul tactics' is the best way to ensure your ground self defence methods are functional and reliable. Have a play around on the mats with this stuff, you'll find if and when you can actually access the softer targets, it doesn't necessarily always result in that attacker getting off you - you still need your escape technique to improve your position and ensure your fighting withdrawal

[Jinen Kym]

I agree with you Ash but in the sense of just a street meet with a less experienced attacker I'm suggesting anyone with good training should have a lot of tools and awareness to help get them out of trouble. I prefer the AA defence .... Awareness and Avoidance.

[Shawn]

Kym, 'foul tactics' can definitely be useful in creating space when grounded under an attacker - but if the attacker is trained in grappling you won't find it so easy to get access to those targets. A combination of grappling and 'foul tactics' is the best way to ensure your ground self defence methods are functional and reliable. Have a play around on the mats with this stuff, you'll find if and when you can actually access the softer targets, it doesn't necessarily always result in that attacker getting off you - you still need your escape technique to improve your position and ensure your fighting withdrawal

Ash you're absolutely right there. What I've found is that too many Karate people (for example) think that their standup is good enough and that if the do go down, they'll bite or scratch etc. It's not until you get taken down by someone half decent and get your butt handed to you a few times that you realise that without ground skills, you're a puppet down there.

I'm still somewhat in this position.

[andrewp]

]

Ash you're absolutely right there. What I've found is that too many Karate people (for example) think that their standup is good enough and that if the do go down, they'll bite or scratch etc. It's not until you get taken down by someone half decent and get your butt handed to you a few times that you realise that without ground skills, you're a puppet down there.

How often do you find someone "half decent" especially in groundwork in a street fight? The odds are pretty slim your going to get into a fight with some super MMA dude. I'm sure you don't look for some well built guy and pick a fight....I don't.

Although I know 4th dans who still say I'll just knee him in the head so I think your point about karateka's attitude is correct.

I do think it is good to learn all skills so you have them in your arsenal.

[Millennia]

I don't think it has as much to do with fighting a super MMA dude as it has to do with understanding the application and limitation of everything we do as Martial Artists. You don't have to be an MMA guy to be able to protect your face and crown jewels whilst on top of an opponent. A great drill is to start with one opponent on top of the other and have the bottom person try and access their 'foul tactics' with eye attacks, groin attacks etc (with appropriate protective gear of course). I think you'll find it's actually not that easy to get to these targets... and that's where a little bit of grappling experience will greatly enhance your dirty tactics fighting.

[Chrislg]

How often do you find someone "half decent" especially in groundwork in a street fight?

More and more often. Its surprising what some total beginners have learned from just watching MMA.

[Millennia]

too true Chris, there are plenty of guys out there now that watch MMA and muck around in the backyard with their mates

[Matt Jones ISOHEALTH]

Hi,

This topic coming back up is actually pretty good timing, I've got an article in Feb Blitz going over some of the methods we use at ISOHEALTH to bridge the gaps between our sport and self defence training (it's part of a series) and it's quite possible you might find some helpful ideas in there.

Cheers mate,
Matt : )

Also, one of my old articles in Blitz goes into this in quite some depth but I can't remember what month it is from, it's about a year old I would guess.

[Zann78]

Being relatively new to karate, I have had this thought in the back of my mind! And heard the anwers you stated! Got some good tips here! I seem to like the idea of biting, scratchin ,gouging.....maybe coz i kno i am at a physical disadvantage or I'm just nasty!

To be totally honest I had no real answer to this! Just hope to god i'm never in that postion!

I am going to take this discussion with me to class and try and get some sort of idea/answer as
1. what it's like to be IN that position.
2. what can i actually do (physical movement etc).
3. can i remember what i've read here.
4. can i implement it.
5. can I be successful.
If i can be successful in a safe environment, I may have a slightly better chance of success in the real real event! God forbid!!!!

I think it's something that can be overlooked, underrated (however you want to put it) That you may end up down on the ground! I think it's ignorant to think you are so good you wont ever end up there! Overconfidence is the undoing of many a man! (not being gender biased here!)
Thanks so much for the idea's guy's!

[Chrislg]

Good post Zann.

To be totally honest I had no real answer to this! Just hope to god i'm never in that postion!

Unfortunately, this is the position of a great many martial arts or 'self defence' instructors, and unlike you, many never question themselves - at least publicly.

I think it's ignorant to think you are so good you wont ever end up there!

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Jinen Kym]

After getting into this post I thought I better put myself under pressure and experiment a little. I wish the guys testing me were little Over 110 kg of newby who has trained in judo prior gave me a hard time but it was a good chance to demostrate some skills and principles. One thing I noticed is everyone reaching out with their hands rather than covering the head in a "helmet" fashion and trying to slide onto the attackers limbs and trying to control momentum. At the same time bridging to off-balance them. I had limited success but it makes you work and appreciate how vonourable we are on the ground with an experienced opponent. If you want to be safe it's necessary to invest some time on the ground in any style.

Excellent inquiring minds like Zann is what will keep us instructors honest, real and continuing to research

Good one Zann.

[andrewp]

Although I know 4th dans who still say I'll just knee him in the head so I think your point about karateka's attitude is correct.

I do think it is good to learn all skills so you have them in your arsenal.

I did agree with you guys....was just speculating on my experience in the first part....never met to many street fighters who liked to go to ground unless their mate is there to kick you in the head.

[Shawn]

Being relatively new to karate, I have had this thought in the back of my mind! And heard the anwers you stated! Got some good tips here! I seem to like the idea of biting, scratchin ,gouging.....maybe coz i kno i am at a physical disadvantage or I'm just nasty!

To be totally honest I had no real answer to this! Just hope to god i'm never in that postion!

I am going to take this discussion with me to class and try and get some sort of idea/answer as
1. what it's like to be IN that position.
2. what can i actually do (physical movement etc).
3. can i remember what i've read here.
4. can i implement it.
5. can I be successful.
If i can be successful in a safe environment, I may have a slightly better chance of success in the real real event! God forbid!!!!

I think it's something that can be overlooked, underrated (however you want to put it) That you may end up down on the ground! I think it's ignorant to think you are so good you wont ever end up there! Overconfidence is the undoing of many a man! (not being gender biased here!)
Thanks so much for the idea's guy's!

Zann, firstly, how did you go?
If people didn't give you the answer you wanted... my advise; suit up and try it. See what happens.

[Zann78]

I got a couple of answer's, with an oppotunity to get on the ground!

For someone who knows nothing (attacker) it was relatively easy to displace them! But someone with even a little knowledge that was harder!!!! ( couple of times impossible) They seemed to regain balance quickly and made it difficult, and me having no idea how to use my leg's in any effective way was eye opening to say the least!

Really got just the tip of the tip of the ice berg! But I am gonna keep prodding for more. Being shown once or twice isn't enough! Not by a LONG shot!!!!

I want to learn more! Where to start tho? I know almost nothing about most other forms of MA. So research here i come!!!

[Shawn]

Zann, your thirst for proficiency on the ground is commendable! While it is an important facet of Martial Arts, my advise is this; Either find a multi-faceted system that covers this as part of the normal syllabus, or; gain a good grounding in your current system before moving on. I'm sure there's some on here that would disagree with me, but I've seen many people step into multiple schools, becoming a jack of all trades, but a master of none. If however it's a single cohesive system, that's a different story.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with supplementing your training. For me, I found that seminars work well for this. It doesn't disrupt your commitment to your weekly training, but a day seminar should put at least a couple of tools in your toolbox. For ground, any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu seminar would be a good place to start.

[Zann78]

Zann, your thirst for proficiency on the ground is commendable! While it is an important facet of Martial Arts, my advise is this; Either find a multi-faceted system that covers this as part of the normal syllabus, or; gain a good grounding in your current system before moving on. I'm sure there's some on here that would disagree with me, but I've seen many people step into multiple schools, becoming a jack of all trades, but a master of none. If however it's a single cohesive system, that's a different story.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with supplementing your training. For me, I found that seminars work well for this. It doesn't disrupt your commitment to your weekly training, but a day seminar should put at least a couple of tools in your toolbox. For ground, any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu seminar would be a good place to start.

Thank you for this advice! I greatly appreciate it! I am in agreement with you on learning one thing at a time! (for me anyway! I am pretty sure I'd get confused otherwise!!!!!) I want to do the best i can possibley do in the system i am currently studying, I had not thought about seminar's! Dopey considering I was just at one!!!!!!! BJJ..... Ok I'll check it out! A taste here and there sound's ideal to me! Thanks again

[Chrislg]

Zann, I believe that someone is going to be doing an introduction to BJJ at the IBF Training Day on March 27...

[Zann78]

Thanks Chris! I should be able to make it that day too! Have business meeting in the morning close to the venue! So I'll probably be there! It'll take my mind off my tournament the next day!!!!!

[Zann78]

Zann, I believe that someone is going to be doing an introduction to BJJ at the IBF Training Day on March 27...

Well......the guy that ran that section was really good!!!!! Don't tell him tho!

Seriously, it was great! Fantastic job! Got some serious answer's to my question's that day! Then more question's!!!!
My interest in it has only grown!
Anyone who has not done any ground work really should just have a go!!!!! Even once. Just get an idea of the reality of someone determined to hold you down. It's an eye opener. I'd encourage anyone to have a go at it!
As of this moment I have only done this once but, I'll be doing it again!
Thank's for telling me about it!

[Chrislg]

I am glad you enjoyed it Zann, its a pity you couldn't stay for the other sections, they were better.
If you need help locating a club, let me know.