A shove

[Zann78]

I came across a situation a while ago and had two different ideas put forward for the same technique.
Scenario....an attacker comes in, doesn't matter how, But they are open enough that you can push them back with your hands on their hip and shoulder! Now the different ideas were....
First one....you step in, land the foot THEN push them back.
The second one is.....to step in make the connection with your hands just before your foot lands, so that you have all your weight coming in with the push.

I was just wondering what others thought on this, and what they prefere

[unclefester]

My personal preference is for everything to land at the same time ie feet and hands. I feel that way you get the best effect. try it on a person holding a large pad and go for it

[Jason Griffiths]

Best thing i can say, is test it out for your self!
Grab a willing partner and attempt both methods, see what method gives you the best results, and ask the partner what they felt had more in it? Then work a few more variations etc, and make it into a Tegumi, sorry just had to put that in!

[Shawn]

Great question Zann. If you can locate one, have a look at a book called "The Secrets of Okinawan Karate" by Kiyoshi Arakaki. I say "locate". Don't buy it, it sucks, borrow it. It does however cover this question in great detail. It talks a lot about a thing called the imaginary centre of gravity. He believes that using an imaginary centre of gravity has a far greater effect than a static body.

An easy way to test this principle without the use of a partner is to stand infront of a wall in fighting stance. Place one hand on the wall (in a fist for added impact) and push on the wall. Feel how much pressure is being returned through your hand. Then, lift your front leg off the ground leaving only your back leg and your hand on the wall. What happens?

[shifu]

Great subject!

My personal preference is for everything to land at the same time ie feet and hands. I feel that way you get the best effect. try it on a person holding a large pad and go for it

This is my preference also. In this way the ground-reaction-energy is focused in the palms leading to greater power generation into the push or strike as it may be.

Scenario....an attacker comes in, doesn't matter how, But they are open enough that you can push them back with your hands on their hip and shoulder!

This sounds like the "Mawashi-Uke/Uchi - Tora-Guchi" technique most often seen in the Goju tradition and that of White Crane (Minghequan - Calling White Crane).



The Reverse Moon and Sun Hands as seen withing the senior White Crane Boxing Form of ZhongKuan commonly expressed as “Body like willow and hands like bullets” – in the old tongue.

It involves a two pronged attack to several cavity points such as Gallbladder 24 known as “Riyue” or “Sun Moon” and Liver 14 (Qimen – Expectations Door) and or Conception Vessel 14 (Juque – Great Palace) a heart mu point resulting in a knockout or death. Stomach 15 (Wuyi – Room Screen) and Stomach 16 (Yinghuan – Breast’s Window) or Stomach 17 (Rugen – Breast Root) and any of the other points mentioned above can also have rather deadly results.

A double strike to Gallbladder 14 (Yangbai – Yang White) and Gallbladder 24 (Riyue – Sun Moon) can also be used.

[Zann78]

Shifu, your spot on.....mawashi uke! This was the first time I had done this in this manner and I am looking forward to doing it again! I thank you all for the feedback! I personally like getting my weight behind the shove! Feels more effective to me. But I have only done it literally 5 or 6 times. I've gotta get someone to train with outside of the dojo!

[Dean Whittle]

From a Ninjutsu perspective the push (or strike) should land slightly after your foot lands but still as your body is moving forward. This way you're maximising your balance (both feet are on the ground) and still using your body weight to add power to the push/strike.

I agree with Jason above, grab a training partner and try it out on a kick shield and then on a body. Your training partner should be encouraged not to lean in or ground themself in any other way, just accept the force of the push and see what the difference is between the two methods.

With respect

[katagirl]

Hmm cool, We try that tomorrow Zann. lol had to look up "Tegumi" so a little more educated today thanks Jason.

Julie

[shifu]

Hi Dean,

Is this technique seen in your Ninjutsu? If so do you think there is a Chinese influence present at all? My knowledge of Ninjutsu is fairly limited.

[jungle-mania]

sanshou uses a shove as a legal technique to push a person off the stage to score points. IMHO, there is no fancy way to shoving, but the China fighters like to shove at the opponent's hip near the edge of the stage when the opponent guards high.

[Zann78]

Great question Zann. If you can locate one, have a look at a book called "The Secrets of Okinawan Karate" by Kiyoshi Arakaki. I say "locate". Don't buy it, it sucks, borrow it. It does however cover this question in great detail. It talks a lot about a thing called the imaginary centre of gravity. He believes that using an imaginary centre of gravity has a far greater effect than a static body.

An easy way to test this principle without the use of a partner is to stand infront of a wall in fighting stance. Place one hand on the wall (in a fist for added impact) and push on the wall. Feel how much pressure is being returned through your hand. Then, lift your front leg off the ground leaving only your back leg and your hand on the wall. What happens?

I am still trying to find this book!
I tried the practice by myself and was surprised at how much pressure there was! Didn't think I'd be able to do that! Thanks guys! Appreciate the all the info!
Partner work....I still like getting my weight behind the shove. Seems much more effective for me!! That is when I get the timing right! Lol!

[Sifu Davo]

Hi everyone

My views on shoving/pushing is that it's tactic that merely prolongs the inevitable. A push doesn't take someone out of the fight (unless you're pushing them into the path of a bus, over the side of a boat or off a tall building) and leaves you open to further attack from a now pre-warned attacker.

Why push when you can strike or punch? Save yourself some effort, keep the element of surprise and go for a technique that ends the fight ASAP if not sooner - since then longer you're in there, the more probable it is that you're going to end up bleeding all over the pavement.

If we're talking about "sporting" applications - eg Taiji Push Hands etc - that's a different ball game.

Cheers


Davo

[Zorbasan]

i think the main reason for a push is to get someone into a range that you are more comfortable in.

a karate guy isnt going to be all that comfortable in a clinch and can use the push to get them in to striking rang, and a tkd guy can get them in to kicking range.

[Dean Whittle]

Ron,

Sorry for the delayed response, I didn't notice your question earlier.

I'm not aware of Ninjutsu having the technique described above and in your photo, my comments related to Ninjutsu's ideal structural allignment during any push or strike technique.

According to some historical sources Ninjutsu does have Chinese roots way way back, however I would say the the fighting methods no longer have any concrete Chinese 'signatures' as the methods were intergrated and changed to suit Japanese fighting methods. Keep in mind that I'm no expert on Chinese systems so I may be missing something that someone with more experience in that field may see.

As an aside, the late Ninjutsu grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu did spend many years in China during his early years working and teaching. No doubt he may have been influenced by Chinese methods in the way he taught Ninjutsu in his later life. Our Organsiation has certainly taken a more Chinese approach to hand conditioning (iron palm training) than the traditional Japanese/Ninjutsu way, particularly given Takamatsu's comments on this matter.

With respect

[Shawn]

i think the main reason for a push is to get someone into a range that you are more comfortable in.

a karate guy isnt going to be all that comfortable in a clinch and can use the push to get them in to striking rang, and a tkd guy can get them in to kicking range.

I'd agree with that, but also add it can be a good "non-violent" way to send them a warning that if that step into your space again, they're gonna cop it. The danger with this though is it gives them forewarning that you're ready to fight and puts them in striking range to do so too.

Sometimes the best shove in this situation is actually a strike. I believe this would be an example of a teep wouldn't it Julian?

[shifu]

Thanks Dean, very interesting.

A push can be used to uproot the opponent or to down the opponent giving time and space for a more serious follow up or simply to buy valuable time to effect an escape (Its not always about fighting!).

[Dean Whittle]

Absolutely Ron, in fact a well time pre-emptive shove can create enough distance to end the fight, provided it's combined with a strong enough adranline dump in the opponent and suitable aggressive verbaling. Putting all these elements together can stop a fight before it starts, and it's something we teach our students as part of our Aggressive De-escalation Program.

With respect

[andrewp]

They are 2 different techniques used when appropriate. Can depend on maai (distance) from attacker, size of attacker etc.

Same as the kick punch in in Heain yodan....foot lands then punch....but the kick punch in Jion is done where the kick and punch lands at the same time.